David Burly welcomes Jennifer Welsh and Colin Robertson to his The Herle Burly podcast.

Back in July, the Wall Street Journal ran a striking series on how Europe is quietly rethinking its arrangements with the world to counter a changing, increasingly predatory United States. And surprisingly, named Mark Carney as one of the leaders pushing Europe in that direction, pointing back to his Davos speech and his idea of “variable geometry” alliances replacing the old hub-and-spoke reliance on Washington.

Jennifer Welsh is a Rhodes Scholar, co-founder of the Oxford Institute for Ethics, Law and Armed Conflict. Currently, the Director of the Max Bell School of Public Policy at McGill University.

Colin Robertson served as a Canadian diplomat for over 30 years. He helped negotiate the original Canada/U.S. Free Trade Agreement and NAFTA. Currently, he’s a Fellow at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute and host of its Global Exchange podcast.